The Old Daren Sunday School

A group of WMCEG members at ODSS in the early ’70s

From the right: Petal, Pete Burns, Grunt (seated), Muffin, Paul Hicks, Pixie, God, Cisco, Dave Johnson

The purchase by WMCEG:

I am relying on memory from the 1970s so what follows is indicative and not necessarily accurate,  any corrections or additions welcome.
After it fell into disuse as a Sunday school, for many years the building was owned by an elderly couple in Brynmawr who rented it out to cavers. WMCEG were frequent users and built up a good relationship with the owners. It was a bit basic! Water was fetched from a nearby spring, there was a chemical toilet. There were, if I recall correctly, 3 (maybe 4?) sets of 3-tier bunk “beds” of canvas suspended from scaffolding-poles. Heating was from a small solid-fuel stove and I think cooking was on bottled-gas burners. Approx. dimensions 5×8 metres. It’s about 40 Metres North of CSS Whitewalls here.

In 1986 care of the building was becoming a burden to the aged couple (Gwendoline & Noel Starr) who had owned it since 1956 so they put ODSS on the market at an asking price which I understand was somewhere around £5-6000. As regular (~monthly) users of ODSS, WMCEG were asked if we’d like to make an offer. The asking price was way outside anything we could consider but as we’d been invited to bid we offered what we could afford, £1000. To put that in perspective, around that time I’d moved to London earning about £3000 p.a. where I paid £10,000 for a one bedroom maisonette so £1000 was a significant sum. To our surprise our offer was accepted. We had heard that CSS (Chelsea Speleological Society) had made a larger offer but that the vendors preferred WMCEG, perhaps because we’d maintained a friendly relationship with the Starrs for maybe 20 years.
In order to have designated “owners” from a legal perspective 3 trustees were appointed (one of whom has subsequently died and was not replaced).  We then had to find the money! Many individual members paid for a “share”.

Attempts to upgrade the facilities by WMCEG many years ago triggered the local planners to not only reject the proposal but also to issue a Closing Order restricting its ongoing use.

The planned disposal:

In 2017 it came to light that after ten years of little action the two remaining trustees were in the process of selling ODSS. It was believed that a price of around £2000 had been offered by CSS in 2013, now, 4 years later that was to be taken up without further negotiation. The small handful of past members who initially got to hear of this in 2017 told those they were in contact with.  All were taken aback by the low price and the lack of any attempt at wider consultation. The trustees were to attend a meeting where they could present their deliberations and address those concerns, however at the last minute they cancelled the meeting and the accommodation they’d booked.

The value of the property:

We don’t know if the trustees had made any attempt to obtain independent valuations.

Between 1977 and 2017 the UK house price index has increased roughly 8-fold.  On that basis alone a 2017 valuation of £8,000 might not be unreasonable unless rather than looking at our “special deal” of £1000 you look at the original asking price of £5,000, in which case a valuation linked to the UKHPI might be £40,000.

But things aren’t that simple. Another way to look at the issue is to make comparisons with similar properties.   I’m not suggesting ODSS was worth anything like the average price of properties in the NP8 1LG postcode (now over £500,000), it was small and needed a lot of work but £2000 seems ridiculously little, so here’s another comparison.

A bijou  rural property located in another national park, the Peak District (between Stanage Edge and Higger Tor) was sold at auction in 2022.  It was smaller than ODSS with a total floor area of 30 square metres set on a plot of 200 sq metres (0.05 acres). Apart from a brick chimney stack it’s basically a wooden shack in a state of serious disrepair.  The roof is tar-paper and blue plastic sheet but it is not weatherproof. There is no mains gas, electricity, sewage, water, no toilet, no drainage or septic tank.  The initial guide price was £80,000 but at auction it raised substantially more. 

ODSS was a substantial stone building with a footprint of about 40 square metres, in need of renovation in contrast to the Peak District rotting wooden shed which, I imagine, will be demolished and replaced with a new structure.

There’s a valid point to be made (not that the trustees did make it), that ODSS should remain as a cavers and/or general outdoor activities resource as was the intention of  Gwen & Noel Starr and that no such organisation would be able to afford the market valuation. That disregards the funding available from government and the National Lottery.  Comparable organisations I’m involved with have received 6 figure sums in support of suitable projects.

member wmceg2o17

Who bought ODSS?

ODSS was bought by CSS (Chelsea Speleological Society) which does fulfil the wish to see it remain as a facility for activity sports. On the other hand, CSS already own the adjacent former farmhouse, Whitewalls.  Given the proximity to the major cave systems, there must be other cave clubs (SWCC or the Mendip clubs) who would welcome the opportunity to own a base in the area. Darren Cilau and Agen Allwedd are both a short walk from ODSS.

The obstacles cited by the trustees include reference to the attempts to upgrade the facilities by WMCEG many years ago.  That  triggered the local planners to not only reject the proposals but also to issue a Closing Order restricting its ongoing use.

A trustee wrote: “With such a tight footprint of land around the building and having no drainage [my emphasis] together with the Council’s Closing Order and other issues, it is very unlikely that it could ever be developed into residential use now. No one else is likely to be interested in it…”

The future of ODSS:

The past is all “water under the bridge”. CSS got an incredible bargain and it is good that ODSS remains within the caving community. CSS are now renovating the building, the previous planning objections seem not to have been an obstacle.

CSS quickly got planning permission which reads: “Provision of toilet and shower with connection to new pumping station and septic tank. Replacement of roof (same profile). Insulation of property.” Work started in 2018.  It seems  drainage wasn’t such an insurmountable problem.  A septic tank has been installed, the porch has had height added, the building re-roofed, and work continues, seemingly largely by volunteer effort. CSS facebook pages.

The final outcome:

Several years on there has still been no further communication from the trustees. One might conclude that they would rather not face difficult questions. One of the trustees had indicated that, as the club no longer existed, the trustees had no responsibility to the former members who had appointed them to look after their best interests. Former members who had invested in the purchase and had placed their trust in these persons felt they did have a valid interest in the future of the property they had financed, some at least were still in contact with the trustees.  That more members could be readily traced was demonstrated by the fact that the original handful of members invited to the meeting, grew to 20 indicating they would attend in the space of a few days (in the event half a dozen of the original group invited to the reunion backed out).  Several more were interested but unavailable. That list has continued to grow.  Some of that larger group had hoped it was intended to discuss the proposed sale but it seems that meeting was merely to announce a fait accompli and engage in a bout of self-congratulation for achieving a sale.

The trustees had already taken it upon themselves to proceed with the sale. As the trustees don’t consider it appropriate to communicate with the former WMCEG members we don’t know the terms of the sale but HM Land Registry shows a transfer date of August 18, 2017. The price paid was £2,000.  How much of the proceeds of the sale were consumed by trustees expenses or solicitor’s costs for processing the sale we don’t know.

One comment was that the trustees had no contact details for more than a small handful of former members. That may be true but they hadn’t made any effort to grow that list nor to consult with those former members. It was not a difficult challenge, within days of hearing of the intended sale and meeting the news spread and reached over 20. This web site has attracted more and the number is now over 60.

As for disposal of the proceeds of the sale (plus the bank balance, reportedly £2600), well we don’t know that either. The trustees were proposing a donation to the Ghar Parau Foundation others made representations in favour of UK Cave rescue (particularly in view of the fact that WMCEG had called upon the services of UK Cave rescue on at least 3 occasions). The feeling was that the GPF supports only a small part of the UK caving community (going on international expeditions). Others would rather the money stayed in UK supporting the wider UK caving community.
Suppose the trustees had pursued a realistic price, perhaps to a caving club with Government or National Lottery support for the purchase, what would have happened to the money?  A six figure price should have been achievable, that would have made a much bigger donation to Cave Rescue.  It would make little dent in that sum if the original members who between them contributed £1000 could have been reimbursed (with interest), the trustees could have been generously compensated for their efforts over the years, there could have been a properly organised event for former members and the trustees would not have been ashamed to show up for the reunion.

Maybe the story is very different.
Maybe the trustees had estate agents value the building.
Maybe they’d considered going to auction.
Maybe CSS would have got it for £2000 at auction.
Maybe they’d approached other Caving Clubs.  The South Wales CC is based 40 miles away at Penwyllt and might appreciate a second base, very convenient for the two major cave systems at Ogof y Daren Cilau and Ogof Agen Allwedd.  The same consideration may apply to clubs further afield, after all the CSS is The Chelsea Caving Club, or some of the Mendip clubs, just 80 miles away.
Maybe all these avenues had been explored with no success.
Maybe the sale price really was all the place was worth.

We don’t know.

It’s a shame that the trustees decided it was nothing to do with the people who paid for the building in the first place.
It’s telling that the trustees lacked the confidence in their decision to come to the reunion to explain their reasoning but chickened out.
It’s a shame that several years later they’ve not seen fit to tell us what they did with the £4600.

I’m sure that as (former) cavers we are all glad that the building has ended up in the hands of a caving club and that they are undertaking the necessary renovations.

I’m sure I speak for all former WMCEG members when I thank CSS for taking good care of an important part of our memories.

A second positive outcome was the great reunion event in 2017, that we have a “memorial” web site, and that 60 former members are now in touch.